Aug. 22, 2023
Ep 3 - Boss Talks: Shutting It Down with Heather Thomason of Primal Supply Meats / Part 2
Part 2 of Kate's conversation with Heather Thomason of Primal Supply Meats.
You might want to listen to Part 1 of our conversation before you listen to this episode.
We left off with Heather finally coming to terms with her need to exit her business.
Part 2 is what happened next, including the weird double identity issues involved in orchestrating a graceful wind down, and the complicated answers to the questions “what happened?” and “what’s next?”
To learn more about Whiskey Fridays and read further essays by Kate on the topics we discuss go to katetyson.substack.com
Transcript
Part 2
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Heather: [00:00:00]
I was like floating. and I don't mean from like happiness. the reality of the, of the fact that I had put down the weight, like I had set down the burden of the business, like I had, I'd given it up I was like physically and mentally almost like levitating from the lightness of it. Like the relief was flooding into me every day I felt less and less burdened
Kate: Hi there, Kate Tyson here from Whiskey Fridays. with part two of my conversation with Heather Thomason of Primal Supply Meats. Primal Supply Meats was a whole animal butchery in Philadelphia
that built a supply chain of ethically and sustainably raised meats through relationships with area farmers. Heather closed the business down at the end of May of this year, so this conversation is very fresh. If you [00:01:00] haven't listened to part one yet, where we talk about the lead up to Heather's decision to close the business, I'd encourage you to go back and listen to that first, as today's conversation will make a whole lot more sense.
Her AirPods punked out halfway through her recording, um, so just know I had to get a little creative on the edit. You'll hear that some of my questions sound inserted, because, well, I did actually re record them in post. But, hey, I'm learning as I go, so thanks for hanging with me.
Today, she and I are following up on the, and then what, aftermath of Heather finally realizing she couldn't keep leading Primal Supply Meats and needed to make a big change. John and I talked about business closures for our first episode of Whiskey Fridays, and one of the things we've observed is that leaders really agonize over the decision to close.
Which is completely understandable. Shutting something you've poured so much work, money, energy into is, [00:02:00] to make a really obvious understatement, a big fucking deal. And what I really appreciate about Heather here is just how honest and real she was with me about that decision and why it was so hard to make.
So thanks for listening, and let's get to it.
Hey, Heather, just to catch folks up, when we left off, you were talking about finally getting to the point where you realized you really needed to make a change for yourself, where you You were getting to the, I can close this, I can end this decision.
But, I'll kind of preview for those of you listening, that you didn't wake up one day, and decide to close the business, and then that was that.
This was a serious process, let's say, with a number of twists and turns. So maybe we can start where we kind of left off, [00:03:00] where you started that process of winding down, knowing you needed an exit strategy of some sort.
Heather: yeah, there was a period where my first decision wasn't, I'm going to close Primal, but it was, like, Something has to change and I need an exit strategy and a couple of people that I reached out to who I knew had experience in either a very risky turnaround and or a business closure all encouraged me to try to sell the business.
And it seemed like, well, that would be a responsible thing to do, but I, I had this gut feeling like where it is in terms of like, you know, our, our debt to income ratio and stuff. I just kind of knew it wasn't going to be saleable. And for other obvious reasons, like a labor based business where the like owner operators as crucial as I was from my, you know, sort of knowledge and skill set is not something that someone's going to turn key.
So I had kind of a gut sense that it wasn't going to work to sell it, but it did feel like a responsible step to try. So I actually, for like a few [00:04:00] months throughout the winter, I pursued that because it felt like the right thing to do, even to my lenders and whatnot to say like, Hey, I didn't just shut this thing down.
Like I tried to do this. Um, so, you know, spoiler alert, it didn't come to anything. I didn't really get, end up getting any offers that changed my trajectory, but.
I think that was kind of a necessary step for me to start kind of accepting, letting go of the business in one way or another.
but yeah, so you know, at the point that I realized, okay, a sale isn't, isn't going to be the path. That was probably the point where I knew I need to start putting these wheels in motion, but it's like, it has to be the right time and it has to be the right way.
So, you know in having a business with planning cycles. You have to talk to your farmers in April, May about turkeys for Thanksgiving, like, and those kinds of cycles are happening, I think all year long, to a certain extent.
Kate: you said a bit ago, what a big value transparency is for you. and [00:05:00] that you, you know, you approached your business in terms of what you were building with a lot of transparency, but then of course, like, you know, all these decisions in this process you're talking about, it's like a.
Extremely private thing. And, I think one of the challenges, especially if you value transparency is trying to like balance that with leadership and stability, like for your team and your customers and your vendors and stuff like that, because there are real risks to. Telling folks too much of certain kinds of information like you're not going to casually Tell your team six months ago like hey, you know,I'm really having some serious thoughts about closing I'm not sure yet or when but like maybe I'll just keep you posted like like that's not No, you can't do that.
I mean, and that's not even a kind, you know, it's not a kind thing to do to people. Like it's, that would be bad leadership. Right. so, you made this decision. And then at some [00:06:00] point you have to start widening the circle. Right. And, but, you know, you want to do it in a controlled way.
So how did you kind of go about that process of letting folks know?
Heather: you know, I'd look at the calendar and I'd think to myself, you know, if I told the farmers now that maybe three months from now we were going to close and I feel like, you know, we're safe and we'll have the runway to do that and that would be fine. That would be really good for them. Um, they would have some time to find other buyers and, but it's like our world is small and if they start going out and seeking other buyers, then my slaughterhouse is going to find out.
And then, you know, other small businesses in this community are going to find out.
as much as I wanted to do that, um, I, you know, these 10 year relationships and how much I value these people, I just kind of ran the scenario on whether or not I could, I could risk letting that information out to them.
And I decided I couldn't. And then a similar thing happened to me with staffing, where I had two high level managers that were sort of working under me to run the team. And one of them gave me notice of, you know, perfectly [00:07:00] fine, respectful, like deciding to make a career change, giving me more than a month's notice, um, that she was going to leave her role.
And that was really difficult because at that point, I also had decided that it was like I hadn't decided when or how, but I did know that I was closing the business. And so then I have this ethical. Conundrum of like, well, we can't really operate without this general manager role, and yet it is not right for me to go out and solicit someone to take a salary role in a business that they're going to view as a long term commitment for their life when I know that, like, we've got three to six months that it's like, I'm not going through another holiday season.
I'm not going to sell those turkeys. I'm not even going to commit to them. Like, we're going to get to the summer, maybe make it through it. Um, so it kind of, I would, I guess in some ways it's like once I made that decision my hands sort of got forced because that's what happened. It's like, you know, you're trying to keep going, but it doesn't feel right to hire.
So then we're short staffed. So then my staff is struggling. So then I'm supporting them and not revenue. And it's like, you know, the, the... Well, there's
Kate: certain [00:08:00] tells because it's like your team's going to find out you didn't order the turkeys. And then be like, wait, what?
Heather: Like, and then like Henry called me about the turkeys and it was April and it was time to make that call.
And I knew he was just putting in an order at the hatchery that he could cancel. It wasn't them like arriving at the farm, but we had this conversation and I, he caught me off guard about it. I wasn't ready to tell him. So we talked about numbers and I like hung up the phone that day and I was just like.
I can't keep doing this. I can't like pick up the, you know, like sort of take on and redistribute the role of a general manager because I'm not hiring one without anybody wondering what's going on. Like I can't let this farmer start thinking that this is the sales plan when it's not.
That was, it kind of forced me to say, like, if I'm making this decision, I need to make this decision. And truthfully, at that point, I was still doing that thing. I was still going back to my couple of close advisors and my husband and saying, like, Look, I can't hire a manager.
I don't want to commit to the turkeys. Like, I just don't feel like I have the bandwidth to keep doing this. Like, we don't have a future. I need to shut it down. And everyone [00:09:00] would still say to me, like, are you sure? Like even in that moment where to me the writing is so on the wall, I was still looking for like someone to agree and say like, yeah, do it.
And they, and they didn't. So I, I kind of like lived along like like that for like a month. And then another key employee gave me notice, and they gave me notice, they gave me notice in a way that I could tell that they were starting to get frustrated by the way that the business was starting to limp.
And that was, that was the moment for me where it was like this, this is over and it's time for me to, to pull, to pull the trigger.
Kate: All this past spring it sounds like you were in this limbo zone of knowing what you needed to do.
Not quite pulling the trigger. Did you put dates down for yourself? I know you were clearly plotting this in your head for months.
Heather:
Yeah, I was managing my calendar a lot to manage my anxiety, if that makes sense. Like, my days had to be really scheduled for how much I was, I was, and needed to get done. And if I felt [00:10:00] really stressed out, I would like sit at my calendar and I would like repuzzle it and it would make me feel better.
Like, Oh, I can get this done. So I started doing the like closing timelines as part of that weird private calendar anxiety exercise. And I'd plot it. And then I'd like get up to the day and be like, I'm not doing it. And sometimes I'd like shift it all forward two weeks or, and I was doing the dumbest thing.
Kate: How many times did you do that?
Heather: Like three. Probably. I did it. Yeah. I did it through like all of March and April and little stuff that I'd weigh. It's like, well, so and so has vacation time planned and I can't be like going through the closure without this key employee. So like, I guess I have to wait two weeks to do it.
I think by like the third time I rescheduled it was again, one of those reality checks of like, and there's other things in like this in life that are like this, but it's like. There's come on. There's never gonna be a good time. Mm hmm. Yeah, totally. You just have to do it because I had gotten myself into this Into this place of indecision where there was a lot of things I wasn't acting on anymore because I knew I was going to close the business.[00:11:00]
I couldn't hide them anymore. And they were starting to impact the business. And it was like, I worked too hard to get us to this place where the closure is my choice and I can do it within my control and I can pay everyone and sort of as gracefully wind this down in a way I had fought for.
And I could tell that if I waited any longer, I was going to lose that. And, and I just worked too hard for it. So that's, that's the moment.
And, and, you know, like I said, I kept waiting for everybody to agree with me. And my two key people ultimately were my husband and John Gerber, who had, who was my attorney, but also like one of my closest advisors going through this process.
Heather: And then one day I just said to Brad, I said, I know, I just, it kind of became clear to me that he was never going to agree, that no one was going to ever agree. And so one day I just said to him, and it was like, it was a low moment for me. Like, I, I was kind of bottoming out in how much I felt like I could emotionally and physically, like, keep this whole thing going.
And, and the duality was crushing me of, like, what I was privately going through versus the, the public face I was still [00:12:00] maintaining. And I finally one day said, like, I understand that for all the right reasons you've been trying to help me keep going, but what I need to ask you for right now is I need you to help me end this.
And I called John and I told him the same thing. I said, like, you know, I've, I've come to this decision. I'm ready to do this. It's what I need to do. And he even said to me, I think he said like, okay, I feel like I'm going to throw up, but you're right.
Let's do it. and, and John was like, let's schedule a call. I want to help you plan all this. And I think he was kind of surprised when we got on this call where he was, he thought he'd have to help me walk through all the scenario of shutting it down.
And I was like,
Kate: You'd thought about
it like all night long, every night for three months, probably.
Heather: Yeah. I had like a two page Google doc that I had been slowly making that was like, well, I'm going to call this person first and I'm going to get all these things in line. And then that's when I'll start to notify them.
And he's like, okay, I feel better. I feel like you have a plan. I was like, I've had the plan. The hardest part was just doing it.
Kate: And then you actually had to start telling more [00:13:00] people but at the same time, you know, you had a plan and a sequence.
And so you had that knowledge, but we're also having to show up to work every day in front of these folks where you knew what was about to happen, but you couldn't quite tell everybody all at the same time, of course.
Heather: Yes And that week, like the week where we all knew I was going to do it, but we meaning like three or four people, everybody else still showed up to work every day. And the farmers, like I talked to them on the phone, like it was so heavy.
It was so hard to like. You know, the responsible closure is one in which you do privately spend the time setting this all up so it can go down as gracefully as possible. So it impacts people like, you know, it has the least negative impact on all of the shareholders, anything from my customers to my employees to my farmers.
Um, so that was like a really heavy time to work through all that, to like, have that responsibility of doing that. Um, Yeah. And I had some of those like,
Kate: you're lying to people.
Heather: [00:14:00] Exactly, exactly. And like, you know, I preach like transparency and integrity and it doesn't feel like you're acting with integrity when you're lying.
Wow.
Kate: you know, when you actually talk it through and say it out loud, like, what a strange circumstance to have livelihoods wrapped up in, like where you as the leader have to hold all of that as one person. And play pretend. In the sort of, you know, the, like, cosplay of, like, the optimistic, fearless leader.
Yeah. That's, like, always gonna rally and, like, get everybody pumped to go to work. and at the end of the day, I, it's a little bit, I don't know if paternalistic is the right word. I don't think that's the right word.
But, like, you're holding their best interest. Without their knowledge or their consent you know what's about to happen. But like, you want to manage this so you can continue to pay them [00:15:00] wages, right?
And like, so that it doesn't go off the rails in a way that you can't control that. But at the same time, that means you're lying to them about their future prospects and livelihoods.
Heather: Yes.
Kate: And that's really shitty. It's just like a really shitty setup for
everybody.
Heather: Yeah, it's like, I know there's no long term future for you here, but I do, it is my responsibility to make sure that the next one or two months...
of your time here is like what I promised you it would be, which at the end of the day is getting paid for the work. So it's like, yeah, I need to lie to you today so that you are still doing your job tomorrow so that I can pay you two or four weeks from now, even though ultimately it's like, you're not going to have a job a year from now,
Kate: which
is like probably objectively.
Exploitative.
Heather: Yeah. Yeah. And it feels that way. You
start to consider it. It feels weird. Yeah.
Kate: And, but like, also, the alternative
is...
Heather: Like the whole thing implodes and everyone suffers. Like everyone suffers. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. you know, that week [00:16:00] where I decided what I was going to do and I set the timeline and I, I just kind of like, once I decided I needed to move, you know, it's like, you have to move swiftly and, uh, the irony of it is that at that time, like I said, like the business wasn't Actively failing, I just had recognized there wasn't a future and I knew that I also just personally could not continue to carry this weight.
right.
Kate: There's also maintenance work and the things that you start letting go when you know,
Heather: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's true.
Kate: You know, it's not going to continue. So I feel like there is that sort of like, You know, it's like one of those cartoons where the car just slowly starts shitting parts.
Yeah, like the pieces are falling off. Yeah, and it's like, and finally it's just, like, the empty, like, hubcaps rolling along with, a naked person sitting there holding a driver's wheel. It's, like, kind of, like, you could get to
that point.
Heather: But, like, I can tell you all this stuff in hindsight, and it feels clear now, but the reality is that there still is that, at the end of the day, like, Primal was my baby, you know?
It's, like, a thing that, like, I imagined it, and I built it from nothing, and it had gotten to this [00:17:00] point, and... As the sort of creative mind entrepreneur person where you're always imagining solutions and scenarios, I can tell you that that never stopped happening to me, which was kind of like a mind fuck.
You know, it's like I put all this work into getting to the point of being able to rationalize and then make this decision. And, you know, it's like, I think it was a Monday that I said, We're moving forward with this plan. I'm going to make the first round of phone calls on Saturday. And I've got till then to get my ducks in a row.
Like that Wednesday, I, um, I had a couple of interviews scheduled for like some entry level positions and they've been vacant for a little bit. And I wasn't going to be notifying my staff for a couple of weeks. So I felt like I needed to proceed with these interviews. And I went through that same ethical question to myself, like, is it right to interview these people?
And I'm like, you know what? Four people are coming in to interview for one job. In reality, only one of them would get the job anyway. And three people, I would be saying. Sorry, you didn't get this. So if I say, sorry, you didn't get this to four people, I'm not really lying that much. Like it's like, I'm getting to this point where I'm rationalizing like what lies are worse than [00:18:00] others.
Kate: Is this okay? Is this too bad? A big of a lie?
Heather: Yeah. The reason why it was important was because my staff who was running sort of. Manageably, but short staffed was we were getting this point where it's like if they weren't watching the interview and I wasn't going to notify them for another couple of weeks at the business is closing, they were going to start to be like, What the fuck is she doing?
Like, why isn't she hiring people for us? So I had to keep up appearances. And like on Wednesday, I hosted these interviews, even though I was going to start putting the wheels in motion to shut the business down on Saturday. And I knew I wasn't going to offer these people any jobs. It was just like, let me just go through these interviews.
So
Kate:
a total charade.
Heather: Yes, it was 100% a charade, but the irony of it is that I have been, we've been really struggling with staffing and a lot of small businesses are in this current economy and world that we're living in. I had like four of the best interviews and engaged candidates than I had had in like six months.
I mean, it was just like, you've got to be kidding me. Like butchers don't grow on trees and there's a really skilled, super professional. really engaged with what we do at Primal Butcher sitting in my office.
Kate: Back [00:19:00] to what we were saying before, though, there's never going to be a clear, perfect time. There's always going to be something going well, like, or a glimmer of hope. Um, so it really is that slow car falling to pieces thing we were saying, and then, you know, I think really it came down to the question of Heather, did you have any gas left in your tank?
No,
Heather: no, no. And the answer was like absolutely
not. No, not I was running on fumes for so long, but I'm still the same person. I'm still the same person that like several years earlier when someone said, I don't know if this is gonna work, and I'd be like, I'll make it work. Yeah. You know, even though I was out of gas and I was approaching things differently and I was really running out of steam.
Mentally, you know, creatively, I still was like looking at those four people being like, I can imagine how you'd be working over here and then we'd start running it this way and that kept happening to me. It happened almost every day that week. I'd have to like shut my own mind down by being like, but the numbers don't lie.
The numbers don't lie. You've made this decision. Like I [00:20:00] just had to practice resolve over and over and over again until the morning that I decided the first phone call I had to make was to a farmer because of the lead time. Like I had to give the farmers about two weeks notice before. anybody else needed to know anything so that privately we were kind of shutting down the supply chain before we'd actually shut down operations.
And the day that I decided I was going to call the farmer, um, I was working from home on purpose, so I didn't have to go and engage with the staff and I could put my emotional energy towards that. And I said, I'd do it. You know, it's like, I took the dog for a walk and I kind of procrastinated. It's like, let me just do this.
And the moment that I did that, and that first step was the one that it's like, there's no going back from this. I felt so different. Like, I thought that I was going to, I don't know, like break down and cry or something after I made that call. And it was like the first moment of starting to put down some of the weight.
And I just started to feel lighter. Like once I did the one thing that there was no going back from my whole outlook changed and like, I don't know my [00:21:00] feeling, my, my body like physically and emotionally, like the lightness just, it's like, it's like the light creep crapped in, you know, like, it's dark and like a cloud broke.
And each call after that got a little bit easier. It also helped that I was, Um, I was met with a lot of grace.
I think that's kind of the best word for it. Um, you know, my farmers really made a point of telling me like, this will impact us, you know, this will impact our livelihood and we have to find new buyers and we know that. But we also know how much work you've done for us and we are grateful for that and there are no hard feelings here and we understand where you're coming from and my slaughterhouse told me the same thing.
You know, the slaughterhouse owners who I was one of their, you know, I'm there 52 weeks a year. Like I'm a pretty important customer to them and they said the same thing. You know, like the owners of the slaughterhouse said, we really respect you for making the hard call. We've watched a lot of people go a lot farther than you have, meaning, you know, they let themselves just run the ship into the ground where I was kind of, uh, Call in it when we still [00:22:00] had a runway, so getting that feedback was really helpful.
it was reassuring. It's like You know, there's never, no one's going to tell me like you did the right thing. But, um, just, just that everyone understood where I was coming from and this very personal decision that I felt like guilty saying out loud because it felt selfish, I guess. Yeah. Um, for them to recognize that yes, it was me behind the business and they understood that I couldn't do it anymore and it wasn't going to work and to give me that grace was really helpful.
Kate: It's almost like they're, There's you as the business owner and you as the leader of Primal, but then you're also a human behind that too. Yeah.
Heather: Yeah. And, and I, and I had very personal relationships with these people, with the farmers. So there's a lot of like humanity between us, you know, there's other vendors where it was just like, you know, we place orders and we pay bills, but these are farmers that I've sat at their kitchen table.
So for the same reason that it made it really hard, For me to make the decision to close the business for six months because of my just guilt and other feelings about how it would impact them. [00:23:00] That's the same reason why they could be, I guess, empathetic and, and gracious about understanding and accepting the closure, even though it would negatively impact them.
So you have to tell the farmers first. And once you do that, you have to start widening the circle.
Um, you know, notifying the farmers was really hard. And then I basically had to go through that whole cycle I just described to you to then tell the employees and the customers. again, I'm back in that duality Nobody knows that I have, I am shutting down the business. I've made these calls.
but the timing of when I would notify my staff and my customers was also very strategic of like, I want to give you all notice. It was really important to me to not do the thing where I said, like, tomorrow's our last day. Um, that it was like, hi, guess what? Like, we're going to tell our customers that we're closing.
Two weeks from now and I need your help doing other things. So you were actually all employed, you know, through the end of the month. And I budgeted to be able to give them, you know, stay bonuses to help pad the transition, because I did have [00:24:00] guilt, um, about the fact that I would be kind of abandoning them as their employer So I went through that cycle two times. the revelation of it to my staff and customers was a lot harder. Emotionally, I thought it would be easier because I kind of got it off my chest to the farmers, but it was Harder in a different way because I had to share that information and then I had to deal with everybody processing it back to me Um, you know notifying my staff and looking around the room and watching Them all on their faces process it.
I saw anger. I saw surprise. I saw just kind of like confusion and sadness. It was only 12 people at this point that I'm talking to, but like, I saw all of this and then we had to keep working, you know? So I had to kind of like, let's go guys, but also kind of like respectfully give them space.
And then. I broke up with 20, 000 people in a day.
And, um, they, the same thing happened. Like my text messages, phone calls, emails of all these people, like. Kind of [00:25:00] trying to support me, but really processing that they didn't see it coming.
It was like we grief counseled our customers. it was sort of a moment where I just kind of had to like take one for the team, if you will, because I was aware that I had spent six months processing this loss. I mean, there was days in January where I knew I'd come to terms, I was privately coming to terms with the fact that I knew I needed to close the business and I would drive down to the South Philly butcher shop and I couldn't get out of my car.
Like it would just hit me like I would have this wave of like sadness and loss of like I can't believe I'm gonna I'm gonna close this and like this isn't gonna be here like this beautiful thing is going to go away and I had those moments like these these moments of like pre processing five months before I actually did it So to everybody else who never saw it coming and just got told one day like hey two weeks now We won't be here.
I kind of stepped up and I like, I went to the shop and I got behind the counter and I was the sort of the person at the forefront because my staff was processing it still behind me.[00:26:00]
and meanwhile, I'm getting asked those questions like, well, why are you closing?
Like, well, what happened? You're like, oh,
Kate: just this small one little thing that's really easy to explain in a couple sentences.
Heather: First
person, the first time somebody asked me that I was not ready for the question. Like I was kind of floored.
that whole time for these two weeks of the closure, it was so strange because, to talk to about what we started here of like the, what the public sees versus what you're privately dealing with.
I was like floating. and I don't mean from like happiness. the reality of the, of the fact that I had put down the weight, like I had set down the burden of the business, like I had, I'd given it up I was like physically and mentally almost like levitating from the lightness of it. Like the relief was flooding into me every day.
I felt less and less burdened. Like I could just, that, that car thing is like kind of how I felt like it's like in the best way. It's like. Yeah, as if I was secretly like meant to fly, but I was grounded instead. And like, you know, when all the stuff fell off, I was light enough to do it. Um, [00:27:00] but it's like, so now I have this weird thing where it feels wrong of me to project my own personal happiness that I have taken control and I've done this thing for myself when everyone else is so sad about it.
Kate: Well, cause
everybody, you know, everybody has their own grieving process too that takes different timelines, but you're putting down a thing that's been crushing you. Yeah. That you've been carrying past the point that you probably could, you know, should have as one human.
meanwhile, like all these other people, like they're, you know, as customers. They're invested in your, keeping going like you're the source of the only quality meat that they can get in the Philadelphia area, basically.
Like
Heather: Primal's Closure was a great loss for a lot of people. You know it, the loss for me is like I really haven't fully processed it.
I haven't really, since, since closing the business I've been trying to just give myself a mental break. So I really just. Don't think about it because it was all I, you know, it was such a mental burden for so long. And I wasn't,
Kate: I was [00:28:00]
intentionally not going to ask you about what's next because I know you've been asked that and it's like a ridiculous productivity culture sort of
question.
I'm
Heather: so unstressed by that question though because something that I realized Um, and one of the first revelations I have about a year out of closing the business was like, I couldn't see forward anymore. And that was one of the things that was really wearing me down.
and like, I'm the visionary, like, right, that's my job. And that's the personality that got me into this. And I, I couldn't envision a future anymore. it was just so cloudy.
I just knew that I didn't really know who I was anymore. Like, I could not remember the last time that I could just get up in the morning and follow my own, like, thoughts or instincts about how the day should go. Um, you know, like, I just don't know what it's like to be like, what does Heather want or need?
And then to go forward and do those things because I hadn't had that privilege in almost a decade.
so yeah, I, I never thought like, I'm gonna close this business so I can do X. It was like, I need to close this business so I can regroup myself and [00:29:00] then figure out what's next.
I never used the word suffering before I never was able to put it, like, put those words on the thing when I was doing it, because I didn't. Want to admit like defeat or failure, but as soon as I got into this phase where everyone else was processing it and I was like, holy shit, I just put that down.
Like there was no clarity about what I was going to do next, but there was clarity in the sense that there was like space and room for me to move forward.
And that was kind of enough for me. But I said out loud one day, I was like, you know, this is the weirdest thing. Because I have been privately suffering for so long and it has been my job to show up every day and have a smile on my face and have a positive attitude as a leader and not let anybody know that that's the way that I feel.
And now I'm not suffering at all. I feel so completely different that I didn't even know it was possible, like, and I'm still working. Like I haven't even gotten out under this, but I am, I'm not suffering. Like I would use words to describe my current state as happiness and like joy and lightness. And those are not [00:30:00] words that I've used in months given maybe years.
And everyone around me wants to console me. Because they think that I should be suffering right now. And like, that was the weirdest thing. Like, yeah.
Kate: Yeah. that's why I congratulated you in the text. Cause I've seen this before. Yeah. Yeah. Where I don't think it's actually that uncommon.
I'm sure, you know, everybody has their own experience, but I've seen this before with folks that finally like make that decision and close. And I think there often is this like, Oh, Taking the boulder off and putting it down in like this lightness where, that just that weight of decisions and obligation and responsibility comes off.
And it's almost like this boomerang effect where you like, like float up to the ceiling because there's not weights on your feet
anymore.
Heather: That's really like the image of like how I physically and mentally felt at that time. And a couple of business owners who had closed their own businesses, who I knew, reached out to [00:31:00] me in those first weeks to just kind of check in and say, you know, Hey, I know, I know what you went through.
Um, You know, and it wasn't a consolation. It was more of like an empathetic kind of outreach of just know what you're going through. It's heavy. It's hard. I hope you're hope you're feeling good on the other side of this.
And we'd be, I was like, Oh my God, the relief is real. Like, this is amazing. And they're like, yeah, you have no, you had no idea, right? I was like, no, I had no idea. And even the uncertainty about what's next. And I, I'm not answering that question. I I made a decision that I'm really sticking to that I promised I would give myself three months before I would make any decisions and it might go longer and it might not, but I said to the couple of people that were close to me, like, Hey, if you hear me getting offers and starting to consider them or doing my thing where I'm suddenly like I'm bored and I'm imagining what's next, if it's not September, you need to tell me that I said I wouldn't do that.
Um, but I also got like all of these people suddenly within 24 hours start reaching out with job offers and opportunities and they want me to come do what I do for them. And I'm just like, Holy shit, like, where were you all six months ago [00:32:00] when I was trying to look for a strategic partner or maybe an investor to save the business?
Like, I couldn't say that I was struggling and needing that. So I couldn't find it and now it's like I go through this big public closure and all these people want to offer me the world in terms of like jobs and career opportunities, which was also just a strange thing.
It was, it was honestly good for my confidence.
Um, because it really, that's the thing is that my confidence had just like gone to shit. Like I blamed, I guess, for lack of a better word myself so much for like the businesses, Not successes or failures. And I really, so sidebar, but I love your non binary approach to this because it's like, yeah, fuck that.
It's a, it's not, it's both an all and neither.
Kate: So do you feel like primal failed?
Heather:
I don't feel like Primal failed. I just don't feel like it succeeded in ways that it needed to. And at the same time, when that, there was this one customer, I think I said this to you, who said to me over the counter and like. I know her, like her and her family used to live around the corner.
They were regulars in the shop when I used to be there all the time. And [00:33:00] here we are five years later and they're still coming in and she just looked me in the eyes and she meant it so sincerely and it wasn't the people who were insensitively like that. I don't know, leaning over the counter going. So what happened?
Um, this was someone who was like, she felt the loss. She knew me personally. She was bummed. She was trying to understand. And she just said like, I just don't really understand because she's like, I guess I really don't know. And things look different to me. But in my. From my perspective, you were so successful.
And it was just the way she said it. I really heard it And so to like put that success and failure thing into perspective, it's like, so yeah, like financially I couldn't find the like success marker that I was looking for.
But when I reflect on seven years of business, as I'm closing it, I'm like, What the customers and the community response to my closing gave me was it reminded me that we were insanely successful. We were successful in the sense that, like, I set out to do a thing to have a mission to, like, create a local supply chain, you know, to [00:34:00] improve access and education around sustainable meat in Philadelphia.
We were, in fact, so successful in doing that, that that's why it was so painful and why there was so much loss. When this business closed
Kate: So you and I have talked about the impossibility of your business model before, like the combination of uncompromising quality, the margins, Related to what you can actually sell the product for, and I'm wondering how you think about that now.
Heather: part of the reason why the business closed or why I had to close it was because also I was never willing to compromise on my values and the integrity that I started the business with.
And there's times where I could have succeeded if I had, like the cost of truly 100% pasture raised meat and grass fed beef, and having skilled butchers. And then, like, what I can pass that along to the community for and the margins that come back to us, it's like, it never added up, it never did, and small food businesses, that's just kind of a reality that a lot of us are talking about privately behind the scenes, it's like, you can't do, like, the math equation where you [00:35:00] say, this costs X, and in order to make our margin that will support us, we'll charge, you know, Y, because people won't pay it, so then you set it to, like, what will they pay, and then what compromises will we make in the middle?
So I did compromise in the sense that, like, I gave myself up. I subsidized my business physically, emotionally, financially for years. But as far as the things that mattered to me, like the integrity of the relationships with the farmers, and the farming practices, and the way that I treated my staff, and what I paid them, whether we could afford it or not, and the service and care that we gave to our customers and our community, like, those things I was unwilling to compromise.
And if I had been able to maybe we would have met some of those financial benchmarks, but I didn't so there was a point Where
Kate: maybe you
would have been able to support yourself better
Heather: Maybe and I don't know would that have given me happiness like to some people yes, but to me like I never wanted to sacrifice my grass fed protocol to you know, lower the cost of my beef to be able to hit those margins because that's not what got me into this, you know,
like a [00:36:00] chef was like, you just need to get a couple of like, you know, really devoted Mexican workers in your kitchen and you can pay them 15 not 20 and they'll get it done. And I was just like, I came home that day and I was like, if that's what it means for me to succeed financially, like that's doesn't feel good.
Um, you know, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna like take advantage of some marginalized community and pay them less because That's like the going rate. Like whoever works in my kitchen deserves 25 an hour and I'm losing sleep over the fact that I can't pay them 20. So yeah, the like success failure thing in, in hindsight is really different because when I was in it, I think I was measuring myself by all of the standards of success.
Like And, you know, what is our revenue and what is our, like, profit and I don't know, like, how quickly are we scaling and how happy is every, I don't know, all that kind of stuff.
Kate: Like you lose
sight of the impact. Yeah.
Heather: Yeah. And so, so yeah, it's like, what is success and what is failure? And like,
in that sort of non binary conversation, it's like, [00:37:00] not succeeding doesn't feel like failure, necessarily.
You know, I was frustrated that I wasn't succeeding in the typical sense, but I didn't feel like I am a failure. I did feel like I was waking up every day trying not to fail, and that was exhausting.
Kate: It sounds like, and I'm really not surprised by this, that once it was all out in the open, the community response really shifted your perspective on this question of success or impact. And it just reminds me, you know, that it, it is really true that nothing galvanizes a response quite like big news like this.
Like you, you don't hear from your customers as much as you do when you finally decide to close everything.
Heather: I
totally know what you mean. And, and yeah, because it's like, the public response, even though people were sad and upset, no one was like angry at me. I, I didn't know what would happen. I was scared of all these things. I was scared that people would be pissed, that they'd be, they'd be angry at the loss, or what I did, or they'd publicly judge me.
because [00:38:00] this is a thing that happens, you know, that people would start commenting on like, well, they did this and they didn't do this. And of course, and, um, you know, little bits and pieces of that happened. But the overwhelming response, the majority response was, like I said, it was gracious, it was understanding, it was accepting, even though everyone felt like a sadness for the loss.
And also going out of business is weirdly good for business. And I knew this, some friends who have closed restaurants told me this, but it's like, you have this month where suddenly like, yes, I'm paying my employees. And, you know, I tried to do things right. So like I paid rent and I paid insurance and stuff right up to the end.
I wasn't like doing the thing where I was on borrowed time, but, um, you know, we stopped buying product. And yet we sold off all of our inventory and we were busy.
We were making sales, and I wasn't worried about money. Um, there was kind of a boomerang where, like, even my staff, um, once they kind of accepted the end, it was like, well, we're all going to have a good time doing our jobs well until the end, and our customers were, like, showing up, buying us out, and giving us well wishes, and it's like, [00:39:00] I don't know, like I said, like, I didn't know what the public response would be, and what it was, it reminded me of Primal's successes, because Primal's real success was its impact on our community, and we did that right up until the end, so like, this, this last month just gave me so much back that I had lost in like the last two years, and I, and I just never saw that coming, so it's like, I ended on a high note and I didn't see that I didn't, I didn't imagine, I never envisioned that in all the like heaviness and the weight of making this decision.
So yeah, like the success and failure sort of reflection and question is just like, it's so messy and it's so hazy because I guess I chose to let my business fail. And in that I recognize so much of the success in what we like set out to do and achieved and never compromised on. Yeah, so like it was weirdly peaceful and who knew that was coming.
I
Kate: Think that's a great Note to start to wind this up on.
Heather: I agree. I agree.
Kate: So I [00:40:00] have I have one last question for you. Okay, which is, is there one piece of advice or wisdom or reflection that you would offer to another business owner that might be listening to this that is currently in the trenches and wondering what to do out there?
Heather: Oh, that's
such a hard question.
I don't know. I, I, it might be too fresh for me to like, give advice to be totally honest.
Kate: That's fair.
Heather: I mean, there's definitely a part of me that wants to like always shake other business owners and be like, What are you doing? You know, like in a, in a way that, uh, that I wish I had like shook myself. But then again, I think other people tried to shake me and I was like, what are you doing? I'm going to do what I do anyway.
Yeah. I, I would say if I had one piece of advice, it is to prioritize yourself.
I never, it's a personal thing that I I've never been good at that. I really was way too comfortable putting myself last all the time. And I [00:41:00] know that it's not always realistic, but I just do think it's really important to fight for. Um, I got better at it in the last year and it was just kind of too late, but I think if I had done it sooner, I wouldn't have allowed myself to burn out to the point that I did and I wouldn't have gotten into that point where like, I didn't enjoy my work or my life.
every day I was able to let something be more urgent or more of a priority than me. And, and whatever that means for you, whether that's like your sleep or your paycheck or your day off or making time for exercise or like whatever you need, and we're never going to be able to do all of it, but there was a lot of times where I accepted doing none of it, and that wasn't okay.
It just wasn't. So, yeah.
Kate: I think that's great advice.
Heather: Yeah.
Kate: I like that one. Well, thank, thank you so much, Heather, for being here.
Yeah, really great to process this with you. I agree. I agree I always appreciate your honesty.
So...
Heather: It's gotten me far, you know, sometimes...
Kate: Well, you know,
you and I [00:42:00] were like, nobody talks about this shit.
So, here we are.
Heather: yeah, I'm uh, this was a good talk. I appreciate it.
Kate: Thanks for listening to this Boss Talks edition of the Whiskey Fridays podcast.
To receive updates on new episodes and my writing exploring new possibilities in business and economics, visit katetyson.
substack. com. Whiskey Fridays is a collaboration between myself, Kate Tyson, of Wanderwell Consulting, and my friend and colleague, John Gerber, of Unlawyer. This episode was edited by me, with much hand holding and indispensable wisdom from Sean McMullen of Yellow House Media.
===
Heather: [00:00:00]
I was like floating. and I don't mean from like happiness. the reality of the, of the fact that I had put down the weight, like I had set down the burden of the business, like I had, I'd given it up I was like physically and mentally almost like levitating from the lightness of it. Like the relief was flooding into me every day I felt less and less burdened
Kate: Hi there, Kate Tyson here from Whiskey Fridays. with part two of my conversation with Heather Thomason of Primal Supply Meats. Primal Supply Meats was a whole animal butchery in Philadelphia
that built a supply chain of ethically and sustainably raised meats through relationships with area farmers. Heather closed the business down at the end of May of this year, so this conversation is very fresh. If you [00:01:00] haven't listened to part one yet, where we talk about the lead up to Heather's decision to close the business, I'd encourage you to go back and listen to that first, as today's conversation will make a whole lot more sense.
Her AirPods punked out halfway through her recording, um, so just know I had to get a little creative on the edit. You'll hear that some of my questions sound inserted, because, well, I did actually re record them in post. But, hey, I'm learning as I go, so thanks for hanging with me.
Today, she and I are following up on the, and then what, aftermath of Heather finally realizing she couldn't keep leading Primal Supply Meats and needed to make a big change. John and I talked about business closures for our first episode of Whiskey Fridays, and one of the things we've observed is that leaders really agonize over the decision to close.
Which is completely understandable. Shutting something you've poured so much work, money, energy into is, [00:02:00] to make a really obvious understatement, a big fucking deal. And what I really appreciate about Heather here is just how honest and real she was with me about that decision and why it was so hard to make.
So thanks for listening, and let's get to it.
Hey, Heather, just to catch folks up, when we left off, you were talking about finally getting to the point where you realized you really needed to make a change for yourself, where you You were getting to the, I can close this, I can end this decision.
But, I'll kind of preview for those of you listening, that you didn't wake up one day, and decide to close the business, and then that was that.
This was a serious process, let's say, with a number of twists and turns. So maybe we can start where we kind of left off, [00:03:00] where you started that process of winding down, knowing you needed an exit strategy of some sort.
Heather: yeah, there was a period where my first decision wasn't, I'm going to close Primal, but it was, like, Something has to change and I need an exit strategy and a couple of people that I reached out to who I knew had experience in either a very risky turnaround and or a business closure all encouraged me to try to sell the business.
And it seemed like, well, that would be a responsible thing to do, but I, I had this gut feeling like where it is in terms of like, you know, our, our debt to income ratio and stuff. I just kind of knew it wasn't going to be saleable. And for other obvious reasons, like a labor based business where the like owner operators as crucial as I was from my, you know, sort of knowledge and skill set is not something that someone's going to turn key.
So I had kind of a gut sense that it wasn't going to work to sell it, but it did feel like a responsible step to try. So I actually, for like a few [00:04:00] months throughout the winter, I pursued that because it felt like the right thing to do, even to my lenders and whatnot to say like, Hey, I didn't just shut this thing down.
Like I tried to do this. Um, so, you know, spoiler alert, it didn't come to anything. I didn't really get, end up getting any offers that changed my trajectory, but.
I think that was kind of a necessary step for me to start kind of accepting, letting go of the business in one way or another.
but yeah, so you know, at the point that I realized, okay, a sale isn't, isn't going to be the path. That was probably the point where I knew I need to start putting these wheels in motion, but it's like, it has to be the right time and it has to be the right way.
So, you know in having a business with planning cycles. You have to talk to your farmers in April, May about turkeys for Thanksgiving, like, and those kinds of cycles are happening, I think all year long, to a certain extent.
Kate: you said a bit ago, what a big value transparency is for you. and [00:05:00] that you, you know, you approached your business in terms of what you were building with a lot of transparency, but then of course, like, you know, all these decisions in this process you're talking about, it's like a.
Extremely private thing. And, I think one of the challenges, especially if you value transparency is trying to like balance that with leadership and stability, like for your team and your customers and your vendors and stuff like that, because there are real risks to. Telling folks too much of certain kinds of information like you're not going to casually Tell your team six months ago like hey, you know,I'm really having some serious thoughts about closing I'm not sure yet or when but like maybe I'll just keep you posted like like that's not No, you can't do that.
I mean, and that's not even a kind, you know, it's not a kind thing to do to people. Like it's, that would be bad leadership. Right. so, you made this decision. And then at some [00:06:00] point you have to start widening the circle. Right. And, but, you know, you want to do it in a controlled way.
So how did you kind of go about that process of letting folks know?
Heather: you know, I'd look at the calendar and I'd think to myself, you know, if I told the farmers now that maybe three months from now we were going to close and I feel like, you know, we're safe and we'll have the runway to do that and that would be fine. That would be really good for them. Um, they would have some time to find other buyers and, but it's like our world is small and if they start going out and seeking other buyers, then my slaughterhouse is going to find out.
And then, you know, other small businesses in this community are going to find out.
as much as I wanted to do that, um, I, you know, these 10 year relationships and how much I value these people, I just kind of ran the scenario on whether or not I could, I could risk letting that information out to them.
And I decided I couldn't. And then a similar thing happened to me with staffing, where I had two high level managers that were sort of working under me to run the team. And one of them gave me notice of, you know, perfectly [00:07:00] fine, respectful, like deciding to make a career change, giving me more than a month's notice, um, that she was going to leave her role.
And that was really difficult because at that point, I also had decided that it was like I hadn't decided when or how, but I did know that I was closing the business. And so then I have this ethical. Conundrum of like, well, we can't really operate without this general manager role, and yet it is not right for me to go out and solicit someone to take a salary role in a business that they're going to view as a long term commitment for their life when I know that, like, we've got three to six months that it's like, I'm not going through another holiday season.
I'm not going to sell those turkeys. I'm not even going to commit to them. Like, we're going to get to the summer, maybe make it through it. Um, so it kind of, I would, I guess in some ways it's like once I made that decision my hands sort of got forced because that's what happened. It's like, you know, you're trying to keep going, but it doesn't feel right to hire.
So then we're short staffed. So then my staff is struggling. So then I'm supporting them and not revenue. And it's like, you know, the, the... Well, there's
Kate: certain [00:08:00] tells because it's like your team's going to find out you didn't order the turkeys. And then be like, wait, what?
Heather: Like, and then like Henry called me about the turkeys and it was April and it was time to make that call.
And I knew he was just putting in an order at the hatchery that he could cancel. It wasn't them like arriving at the farm, but we had this conversation and I, he caught me off guard about it. I wasn't ready to tell him. So we talked about numbers and I like hung up the phone that day and I was just like.
I can't keep doing this. I can't like pick up the, you know, like sort of take on and redistribute the role of a general manager because I'm not hiring one without anybody wondering what's going on. Like I can't let this farmer start thinking that this is the sales plan when it's not.
That was, it kind of forced me to say, like, if I'm making this decision, I need to make this decision. And truthfully, at that point, I was still doing that thing. I was still going back to my couple of close advisors and my husband and saying, like, Look, I can't hire a manager.
I don't want to commit to the turkeys. Like, I just don't feel like I have the bandwidth to keep doing this. Like, we don't have a future. I need to shut it down. And everyone [00:09:00] would still say to me, like, are you sure? Like even in that moment where to me the writing is so on the wall, I was still looking for like someone to agree and say like, yeah, do it.
And they, and they didn't. So I, I kind of like lived along like like that for like a month. And then another key employee gave me notice, and they gave me notice, they gave me notice in a way that I could tell that they were starting to get frustrated by the way that the business was starting to limp.
And that was, that was the moment for me where it was like this, this is over and it's time for me to, to pull, to pull the trigger.
Kate: All this past spring it sounds like you were in this limbo zone of knowing what you needed to do.
Not quite pulling the trigger. Did you put dates down for yourself? I know you were clearly plotting this in your head for months.
Heather:
Yeah, I was managing my calendar a lot to manage my anxiety, if that makes sense. Like, my days had to be really scheduled for how much I was, I was, and needed to get done. And if I felt [00:10:00] really stressed out, I would like sit at my calendar and I would like repuzzle it and it would make me feel better.
Like, Oh, I can get this done. So I started doing the like closing timelines as part of that weird private calendar anxiety exercise. And I'd plot it. And then I'd like get up to the day and be like, I'm not doing it. And sometimes I'd like shift it all forward two weeks or, and I was doing the dumbest thing.
Kate: How many times did you do that?
Heather: Like three. Probably. I did it. Yeah. I did it through like all of March and April and little stuff that I'd weigh. It's like, well, so and so has vacation time planned and I can't be like going through the closure without this key employee. So like, I guess I have to wait two weeks to do it.
I think by like the third time I rescheduled it was again, one of those reality checks of like, and there's other things in like this in life that are like this, but it's like. There's come on. There's never gonna be a good time. Mm hmm. Yeah, totally. You just have to do it because I had gotten myself into this Into this place of indecision where there was a lot of things I wasn't acting on anymore because I knew I was going to close the business.[00:11:00]
I couldn't hide them anymore. And they were starting to impact the business. And it was like, I worked too hard to get us to this place where the closure is my choice and I can do it within my control and I can pay everyone and sort of as gracefully wind this down in a way I had fought for.
And I could tell that if I waited any longer, I was going to lose that. And, and I just worked too hard for it. So that's, that's the moment.
And, and, you know, like I said, I kept waiting for everybody to agree with me. And my two key people ultimately were my husband and John Gerber, who had, who was my attorney, but also like one of my closest advisors going through this process.
Heather: And then one day I just said to Brad, I said, I know, I just, it kind of became clear to me that he was never going to agree, that no one was going to ever agree. And so one day I just said to him, and it was like, it was a low moment for me. Like, I, I was kind of bottoming out in how much I felt like I could emotionally and physically, like, keep this whole thing going.
And, and the duality was crushing me of, like, what I was privately going through versus the, the public face I was still [00:12:00] maintaining. And I finally one day said, like, I understand that for all the right reasons you've been trying to help me keep going, but what I need to ask you for right now is I need you to help me end this.
And I called John and I told him the same thing. I said, like, you know, I've, I've come to this decision. I'm ready to do this. It's what I need to do. And he even said to me, I think he said like, okay, I feel like I'm going to throw up, but you're right.
Let's do it. and, and John was like, let's schedule a call. I want to help you plan all this. And I think he was kind of surprised when we got on this call where he was, he thought he'd have to help me walk through all the scenario of shutting it down.
And I was like,
Kate: You'd thought about
it like all night long, every night for three months, probably.
Heather: Yeah. I had like a two page Google doc that I had been slowly making that was like, well, I'm going to call this person first and I'm going to get all these things in line. And then that's when I'll start to notify them.
And he's like, okay, I feel better. I feel like you have a plan. I was like, I've had the plan. The hardest part was just doing it.
Kate: And then you actually had to start telling more [00:13:00] people but at the same time, you know, you had a plan and a sequence.
And so you had that knowledge, but we're also having to show up to work every day in front of these folks where you knew what was about to happen, but you couldn't quite tell everybody all at the same time, of course.
Heather: Yes And that week, like the week where we all knew I was going to do it, but we meaning like three or four people, everybody else still showed up to work every day. And the farmers, like I talked to them on the phone, like it was so heavy.
It was so hard to like. You know, the responsible closure is one in which you do privately spend the time setting this all up so it can go down as gracefully as possible. So it impacts people like, you know, it has the least negative impact on all of the shareholders, anything from my customers to my employees to my farmers.
Um, so that was like a really heavy time to work through all that, to like, have that responsibility of doing that. Um, Yeah. And I had some of those like,
Kate: you're lying to people.
Heather: [00:14:00] Exactly, exactly. And like, you know, I preach like transparency and integrity and it doesn't feel like you're acting with integrity when you're lying.
Wow.
Kate: you know, when you actually talk it through and say it out loud, like, what a strange circumstance to have livelihoods wrapped up in, like where you as the leader have to hold all of that as one person. And play pretend. In the sort of, you know, the, like, cosplay of, like, the optimistic, fearless leader.
Yeah. That's, like, always gonna rally and, like, get everybody pumped to go to work. and at the end of the day, I, it's a little bit, I don't know if paternalistic is the right word. I don't think that's the right word.
But, like, you're holding their best interest. Without their knowledge or their consent you know what's about to happen. But like, you want to manage this so you can continue to pay them [00:15:00] wages, right?
And like, so that it doesn't go off the rails in a way that you can't control that. But at the same time, that means you're lying to them about their future prospects and livelihoods.
Heather: Yes.
Kate: And that's really shitty. It's just like a really shitty setup for
everybody.
Heather: Yeah, it's like, I know there's no long term future for you here, but I do, it is my responsibility to make sure that the next one or two months...
of your time here is like what I promised you it would be, which at the end of the day is getting paid for the work. So it's like, yeah, I need to lie to you today so that you are still doing your job tomorrow so that I can pay you two or four weeks from now, even though ultimately it's like, you're not going to have a job a year from now,
Kate: which
is like probably objectively.
Exploitative.
Heather: Yeah. Yeah. And it feels that way. You
start to consider it. It feels weird. Yeah.
Kate: And, but like, also, the alternative
is...
Heather: Like the whole thing implodes and everyone suffers. Like everyone suffers. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. you know, that week [00:16:00] where I decided what I was going to do and I set the timeline and I, I just kind of like, once I decided I needed to move, you know, it's like, you have to move swiftly and, uh, the irony of it is that at that time, like I said, like the business wasn't Actively failing, I just had recognized there wasn't a future and I knew that I also just personally could not continue to carry this weight.
right.
Kate: There's also maintenance work and the things that you start letting go when you know,
Heather: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's true.
Kate: You know, it's not going to continue. So I feel like there is that sort of like, You know, it's like one of those cartoons where the car just slowly starts shitting parts.
Yeah, like the pieces are falling off. Yeah, and it's like, and finally it's just, like, the empty, like, hubcaps rolling along with, a naked person sitting there holding a driver's wheel. It's, like, kind of, like, you could get to
that point.
Heather: But, like, I can tell you all this stuff in hindsight, and it feels clear now, but the reality is that there still is that, at the end of the day, like, Primal was my baby, you know?
It's, like, a thing that, like, I imagined it, and I built it from nothing, and it had gotten to this [00:17:00] point, and... As the sort of creative mind entrepreneur person where you're always imagining solutions and scenarios, I can tell you that that never stopped happening to me, which was kind of like a mind fuck.
You know, it's like I put all this work into getting to the point of being able to rationalize and then make this decision. And, you know, it's like, I think it was a Monday that I said, We're moving forward with this plan. I'm going to make the first round of phone calls on Saturday. And I've got till then to get my ducks in a row.
Like that Wednesday, I, um, I had a couple of interviews scheduled for like some entry level positions and they've been vacant for a little bit. And I wasn't going to be notifying my staff for a couple of weeks. So I felt like I needed to proceed with these interviews. And I went through that same ethical question to myself, like, is it right to interview these people?
And I'm like, you know what? Four people are coming in to interview for one job. In reality, only one of them would get the job anyway. And three people, I would be saying. Sorry, you didn't get this. So if I say, sorry, you didn't get this to four people, I'm not really lying that much. Like it's like, I'm getting to this point where I'm rationalizing like what lies are worse than [00:18:00] others.
Kate: Is this okay? Is this too bad? A big of a lie?
Heather: Yeah. The reason why it was important was because my staff who was running sort of. Manageably, but short staffed was we were getting this point where it's like if they weren't watching the interview and I wasn't going to notify them for another couple of weeks at the business is closing, they were going to start to be like, What the fuck is she doing?
Like, why isn't she hiring people for us? So I had to keep up appearances. And like on Wednesday, I hosted these interviews, even though I was going to start putting the wheels in motion to shut the business down on Saturday. And I knew I wasn't going to offer these people any jobs. It was just like, let me just go through these interviews.
So
Kate:
a total charade.
Heather: Yes, it was 100% a charade, but the irony of it is that I have been, we've been really struggling with staffing and a lot of small businesses are in this current economy and world that we're living in. I had like four of the best interviews and engaged candidates than I had had in like six months.
I mean, it was just like, you've got to be kidding me. Like butchers don't grow on trees and there's a really skilled, super professional. really engaged with what we do at Primal Butcher sitting in my office.
Kate: Back [00:19:00] to what we were saying before, though, there's never going to be a clear, perfect time. There's always going to be something going well, like, or a glimmer of hope. Um, so it really is that slow car falling to pieces thing we were saying, and then, you know, I think really it came down to the question of Heather, did you have any gas left in your tank?
No,
Heather: no, no. And the answer was like absolutely
not. No, not I was running on fumes for so long, but I'm still the same person. I'm still the same person that like several years earlier when someone said, I don't know if this is gonna work, and I'd be like, I'll make it work. Yeah. You know, even though I was out of gas and I was approaching things differently and I was really running out of steam.
Mentally, you know, creatively, I still was like looking at those four people being like, I can imagine how you'd be working over here and then we'd start running it this way and that kept happening to me. It happened almost every day that week. I'd have to like shut my own mind down by being like, but the numbers don't lie.
The numbers don't lie. You've made this decision. Like I [00:20:00] just had to practice resolve over and over and over again until the morning that I decided the first phone call I had to make was to a farmer because of the lead time. Like I had to give the farmers about two weeks notice before. anybody else needed to know anything so that privately we were kind of shutting down the supply chain before we'd actually shut down operations.
And the day that I decided I was going to call the farmer, um, I was working from home on purpose, so I didn't have to go and engage with the staff and I could put my emotional energy towards that. And I said, I'd do it. You know, it's like, I took the dog for a walk and I kind of procrastinated. It's like, let me just do this.
And the moment that I did that, and that first step was the one that it's like, there's no going back from this. I felt so different. Like, I thought that I was going to, I don't know, like break down and cry or something after I made that call. And it was like the first moment of starting to put down some of the weight.
And I just started to feel lighter. Like once I did the one thing that there was no going back from my whole outlook changed and like, I don't know my [00:21:00] feeling, my, my body like physically and emotionally, like the lightness just, it's like, it's like the light creep crapped in, you know, like, it's dark and like a cloud broke.
And each call after that got a little bit easier. It also helped that I was, Um, I was met with a lot of grace.
I think that's kind of the best word for it. Um, you know, my farmers really made a point of telling me like, this will impact us, you know, this will impact our livelihood and we have to find new buyers and we know that. But we also know how much work you've done for us and we are grateful for that and there are no hard feelings here and we understand where you're coming from and my slaughterhouse told me the same thing.
You know, the slaughterhouse owners who I was one of their, you know, I'm there 52 weeks a year. Like I'm a pretty important customer to them and they said the same thing. You know, like the owners of the slaughterhouse said, we really respect you for making the hard call. We've watched a lot of people go a lot farther than you have, meaning, you know, they let themselves just run the ship into the ground where I was kind of, uh, Call in it when we still [00:22:00] had a runway, so getting that feedback was really helpful.
it was reassuring. It's like You know, there's never, no one's going to tell me like you did the right thing. But, um, just, just that everyone understood where I was coming from and this very personal decision that I felt like guilty saying out loud because it felt selfish, I guess. Yeah. Um, for them to recognize that yes, it was me behind the business and they understood that I couldn't do it anymore and it wasn't going to work and to give me that grace was really helpful.
Kate: It's almost like they're, There's you as the business owner and you as the leader of Primal, but then you're also a human behind that too. Yeah.
Heather: Yeah. And, and I, and I had very personal relationships with these people, with the farmers. So there's a lot of like humanity between us, you know, there's other vendors where it was just like, you know, we place orders and we pay bills, but these are farmers that I've sat at their kitchen table.
So for the same reason that it made it really hard, For me to make the decision to close the business for six months because of my just guilt and other feelings about how it would impact them. [00:23:00] That's the same reason why they could be, I guess, empathetic and, and gracious about understanding and accepting the closure, even though it would negatively impact them.
So you have to tell the farmers first. And once you do that, you have to start widening the circle.
Um, you know, notifying the farmers was really hard. And then I basically had to go through that whole cycle I just described to you to then tell the employees and the customers. again, I'm back in that duality Nobody knows that I have, I am shutting down the business. I've made these calls.
but the timing of when I would notify my staff and my customers was also very strategic of like, I want to give you all notice. It was really important to me to not do the thing where I said, like, tomorrow's our last day. Um, that it was like, hi, guess what? Like, we're going to tell our customers that we're closing.
Two weeks from now and I need your help doing other things. So you were actually all employed, you know, through the end of the month. And I budgeted to be able to give them, you know, stay bonuses to help pad the transition, because I did have [00:24:00] guilt, um, about the fact that I would be kind of abandoning them as their employer So I went through that cycle two times. the revelation of it to my staff and customers was a lot harder. Emotionally, I thought it would be easier because I kind of got it off my chest to the farmers, but it was Harder in a different way because I had to share that information and then I had to deal with everybody processing it back to me Um, you know notifying my staff and looking around the room and watching Them all on their faces process it.
I saw anger. I saw surprise. I saw just kind of like confusion and sadness. It was only 12 people at this point that I'm talking to, but like, I saw all of this and then we had to keep working, you know? So I had to kind of like, let's go guys, but also kind of like respectfully give them space.
And then. I broke up with 20, 000 people in a day.
And, um, they, the same thing happened. Like my text messages, phone calls, emails of all these people, like. Kind of [00:25:00] trying to support me, but really processing that they didn't see it coming.
It was like we grief counseled our customers. it was sort of a moment where I just kind of had to like take one for the team, if you will, because I was aware that I had spent six months processing this loss. I mean, there was days in January where I knew I'd come to terms, I was privately coming to terms with the fact that I knew I needed to close the business and I would drive down to the South Philly butcher shop and I couldn't get out of my car.
Like it would just hit me like I would have this wave of like sadness and loss of like I can't believe I'm gonna I'm gonna close this and like this isn't gonna be here like this beautiful thing is going to go away and I had those moments like these these moments of like pre processing five months before I actually did it So to everybody else who never saw it coming and just got told one day like hey two weeks now We won't be here.
I kind of stepped up and I like, I went to the shop and I got behind the counter and I was the sort of the person at the forefront because my staff was processing it still behind me.[00:26:00]
and meanwhile, I'm getting asked those questions like, well, why are you closing?
Like, well, what happened? You're like, oh,
Kate: just this small one little thing that's really easy to explain in a couple sentences.
Heather: First
person, the first time somebody asked me that I was not ready for the question. Like I was kind of floored.
that whole time for these two weeks of the closure, it was so strange because, to talk to about what we started here of like the, what the public sees versus what you're privately dealing with.
I was like floating. and I don't mean from like happiness. the reality of the, of the fact that I had put down the weight, like I had set down the burden of the business, like I had, I'd given it up I was like physically and mentally almost like levitating from the lightness of it. Like the relief was flooding into me every day.
I felt less and less burdened. Like I could just, that, that car thing is like kind of how I felt like it's like in the best way. It's like. Yeah, as if I was secretly like meant to fly, but I was grounded instead. And like, you know, when all the stuff fell off, I was light enough to do it. Um, [00:27:00] but it's like, so now I have this weird thing where it feels wrong of me to project my own personal happiness that I have taken control and I've done this thing for myself when everyone else is so sad about it.
Kate: Well, cause
everybody, you know, everybody has their own grieving process too that takes different timelines, but you're putting down a thing that's been crushing you. Yeah. That you've been carrying past the point that you probably could, you know, should have as one human.
meanwhile, like all these other people, like they're, you know, as customers. They're invested in your, keeping going like you're the source of the only quality meat that they can get in the Philadelphia area, basically.
Like
Heather: Primal's Closure was a great loss for a lot of people. You know it, the loss for me is like I really haven't fully processed it.
I haven't really, since, since closing the business I've been trying to just give myself a mental break. So I really just. Don't think about it because it was all I, you know, it was such a mental burden for so long. And I wasn't,
Kate: I was [00:28:00]
intentionally not going to ask you about what's next because I know you've been asked that and it's like a ridiculous productivity culture sort of
question.
I'm
Heather: so unstressed by that question though because something that I realized Um, and one of the first revelations I have about a year out of closing the business was like, I couldn't see forward anymore. And that was one of the things that was really wearing me down.
and like, I'm the visionary, like, right, that's my job. And that's the personality that got me into this. And I, I couldn't envision a future anymore. it was just so cloudy.
I just knew that I didn't really know who I was anymore. Like, I could not remember the last time that I could just get up in the morning and follow my own, like, thoughts or instincts about how the day should go. Um, you know, like, I just don't know what it's like to be like, what does Heather want or need?
And then to go forward and do those things because I hadn't had that privilege in almost a decade.
so yeah, I, I never thought like, I'm gonna close this business so I can do X. It was like, I need to close this business so I can regroup myself and [00:29:00] then figure out what's next.
I never used the word suffering before I never was able to put it, like, put those words on the thing when I was doing it, because I didn't. Want to admit like defeat or failure, but as soon as I got into this phase where everyone else was processing it and I was like, holy shit, I just put that down.
Like there was no clarity about what I was going to do next, but there was clarity in the sense that there was like space and room for me to move forward.
And that was kind of enough for me. But I said out loud one day, I was like, you know, this is the weirdest thing. Because I have been privately suffering for so long and it has been my job to show up every day and have a smile on my face and have a positive attitude as a leader and not let anybody know that that's the way that I feel.
And now I'm not suffering at all. I feel so completely different that I didn't even know it was possible, like, and I'm still working. Like I haven't even gotten out under this, but I am, I'm not suffering. Like I would use words to describe my current state as happiness and like joy and lightness. And those are not [00:30:00] words that I've used in months given maybe years.
And everyone around me wants to console me. Because they think that I should be suffering right now. And like, that was the weirdest thing. Like, yeah.
Kate: Yeah. that's why I congratulated you in the text. Cause I've seen this before. Yeah. Yeah. Where I don't think it's actually that uncommon.
I'm sure, you know, everybody has their own experience, but I've seen this before with folks that finally like make that decision and close. And I think there often is this like, Oh, Taking the boulder off and putting it down in like this lightness where, that just that weight of decisions and obligation and responsibility comes off.
And it's almost like this boomerang effect where you like, like float up to the ceiling because there's not weights on your feet
anymore.
Heather: That's really like the image of like how I physically and mentally felt at that time. And a couple of business owners who had closed their own businesses, who I knew, reached out to [00:31:00] me in those first weeks to just kind of check in and say, you know, Hey, I know, I know what you went through.
Um, You know, and it wasn't a consolation. It was more of like an empathetic kind of outreach of just know what you're going through. It's heavy. It's hard. I hope you're hope you're feeling good on the other side of this.
And we'd be, I was like, Oh my God, the relief is real. Like, this is amazing. And they're like, yeah, you have no, you had no idea, right? I was like, no, I had no idea. And even the uncertainty about what's next. And I, I'm not answering that question. I I made a decision that I'm really sticking to that I promised I would give myself three months before I would make any decisions and it might go longer and it might not, but I said to the couple of people that were close to me, like, Hey, if you hear me getting offers and starting to consider them or doing my thing where I'm suddenly like I'm bored and I'm imagining what's next, if it's not September, you need to tell me that I said I wouldn't do that.
Um, but I also got like all of these people suddenly within 24 hours start reaching out with job offers and opportunities and they want me to come do what I do for them. And I'm just like, Holy shit, like, where were you all six months ago [00:32:00] when I was trying to look for a strategic partner or maybe an investor to save the business?
Like, I couldn't say that I was struggling and needing that. So I couldn't find it and now it's like I go through this big public closure and all these people want to offer me the world in terms of like jobs and career opportunities, which was also just a strange thing.
It was, it was honestly good for my confidence.
Um, because it really, that's the thing is that my confidence had just like gone to shit. Like I blamed, I guess, for lack of a better word myself so much for like the businesses, Not successes or failures. And I really, so sidebar, but I love your non binary approach to this because it's like, yeah, fuck that.
It's a, it's not, it's both an all and neither.
Kate: So do you feel like primal failed?
Heather:
I don't feel like Primal failed. I just don't feel like it succeeded in ways that it needed to. And at the same time, when that, there was this one customer, I think I said this to you, who said to me over the counter and like. I know her, like her and her family used to live around the corner.
They were regulars in the shop when I used to be there all the time. And [00:33:00] here we are five years later and they're still coming in and she just looked me in the eyes and she meant it so sincerely and it wasn't the people who were insensitively like that. I don't know, leaning over the counter going. So what happened?
Um, this was someone who was like, she felt the loss. She knew me personally. She was bummed. She was trying to understand. And she just said like, I just don't really understand because she's like, I guess I really don't know. And things look different to me. But in my. From my perspective, you were so successful.
And it was just the way she said it. I really heard it And so to like put that success and failure thing into perspective, it's like, so yeah, like financially I couldn't find the like success marker that I was looking for.
But when I reflect on seven years of business, as I'm closing it, I'm like, What the customers and the community response to my closing gave me was it reminded me that we were insanely successful. We were successful in the sense that, like, I set out to do a thing to have a mission to, like, create a local supply chain, you know, to [00:34:00] improve access and education around sustainable meat in Philadelphia.
We were, in fact, so successful in doing that, that that's why it was so painful and why there was so much loss. When this business closed
Kate: So you and I have talked about the impossibility of your business model before, like the combination of uncompromising quality, the margins, Related to what you can actually sell the product for, and I'm wondering how you think about that now.
Heather: part of the reason why the business closed or why I had to close it was because also I was never willing to compromise on my values and the integrity that I started the business with.
And there's times where I could have succeeded if I had, like the cost of truly 100% pasture raised meat and grass fed beef, and having skilled butchers. And then, like, what I can pass that along to the community for and the margins that come back to us, it's like, it never added up, it never did, and small food businesses, that's just kind of a reality that a lot of us are talking about privately behind the scenes, it's like, you can't do, like, the math equation where you [00:35:00] say, this costs X, and in order to make our margin that will support us, we'll charge, you know, Y, because people won't pay it, so then you set it to, like, what will they pay, and then what compromises will we make in the middle?
So I did compromise in the sense that, like, I gave myself up. I subsidized my business physically, emotionally, financially for years. But as far as the things that mattered to me, like the integrity of the relationships with the farmers, and the farming practices, and the way that I treated my staff, and what I paid them, whether we could afford it or not, and the service and care that we gave to our customers and our community, like, those things I was unwilling to compromise.
And if I had been able to maybe we would have met some of those financial benchmarks, but I didn't so there was a point Where
Kate: maybe you
would have been able to support yourself better
Heather: Maybe and I don't know would that have given me happiness like to some people yes, but to me like I never wanted to sacrifice my grass fed protocol to you know, lower the cost of my beef to be able to hit those margins because that's not what got me into this, you know,
like a [00:36:00] chef was like, you just need to get a couple of like, you know, really devoted Mexican workers in your kitchen and you can pay them 15 not 20 and they'll get it done. And I was just like, I came home that day and I was like, if that's what it means for me to succeed financially, like that's doesn't feel good.
Um, you know, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna like take advantage of some marginalized community and pay them less because That's like the going rate. Like whoever works in my kitchen deserves 25 an hour and I'm losing sleep over the fact that I can't pay them 20. So yeah, the like success failure thing in, in hindsight is really different because when I was in it, I think I was measuring myself by all of the standards of success.
Like And, you know, what is our revenue and what is our, like, profit and I don't know, like, how quickly are we scaling and how happy is every, I don't know, all that kind of stuff.
Kate: Like you lose
sight of the impact. Yeah.
Heather: Yeah. And so, so yeah, it's like, what is success and what is failure? And like,
in that sort of non binary conversation, it's like, [00:37:00] not succeeding doesn't feel like failure, necessarily.
You know, I was frustrated that I wasn't succeeding in the typical sense, but I didn't feel like I am a failure. I did feel like I was waking up every day trying not to fail, and that was exhausting.
Kate: It sounds like, and I'm really not surprised by this, that once it was all out in the open, the community response really shifted your perspective on this question of success or impact. And it just reminds me, you know, that it, it is really true that nothing galvanizes a response quite like big news like this.
Like you, you don't hear from your customers as much as you do when you finally decide to close everything.
Heather: I
totally know what you mean. And, and yeah, because it's like, the public response, even though people were sad and upset, no one was like angry at me. I, I didn't know what would happen. I was scared of all these things. I was scared that people would be pissed, that they'd be, they'd be angry at the loss, or what I did, or they'd publicly judge me.
because [00:38:00] this is a thing that happens, you know, that people would start commenting on like, well, they did this and they didn't do this. And of course, and, um, you know, little bits and pieces of that happened. But the overwhelming response, the majority response was, like I said, it was gracious, it was understanding, it was accepting, even though everyone felt like a sadness for the loss.
And also going out of business is weirdly good for business. And I knew this, some friends who have closed restaurants told me this, but it's like, you have this month where suddenly like, yes, I'm paying my employees. And, you know, I tried to do things right. So like I paid rent and I paid insurance and stuff right up to the end.
I wasn't like doing the thing where I was on borrowed time, but, um, you know, we stopped buying product. And yet we sold off all of our inventory and we were busy.
We were making sales, and I wasn't worried about money. Um, there was kind of a boomerang where, like, even my staff, um, once they kind of accepted the end, it was like, well, we're all going to have a good time doing our jobs well until the end, and our customers were, like, showing up, buying us out, and giving us well wishes, and it's like, [00:39:00] I don't know, like I said, like, I didn't know what the public response would be, and what it was, it reminded me of Primal's successes, because Primal's real success was its impact on our community, and we did that right up until the end, so like, this, this last month just gave me so much back that I had lost in like the last two years, and I, and I just never saw that coming, so it's like, I ended on a high note and I didn't see that I didn't, I didn't imagine, I never envisioned that in all the like heaviness and the weight of making this decision.
So yeah, like the success and failure sort of reflection and question is just like, it's so messy and it's so hazy because I guess I chose to let my business fail. And in that I recognize so much of the success in what we like set out to do and achieved and never compromised on. Yeah, so like it was weirdly peaceful and who knew that was coming.
I
Kate: Think that's a great Note to start to wind this up on.
Heather: I agree. I agree.
Kate: So I [00:40:00] have I have one last question for you. Okay, which is, is there one piece of advice or wisdom or reflection that you would offer to another business owner that might be listening to this that is currently in the trenches and wondering what to do out there?
Heather: Oh, that's
such a hard question.
I don't know. I, I, it might be too fresh for me to like, give advice to be totally honest.
Kate: That's fair.
Heather: I mean, there's definitely a part of me that wants to like always shake other business owners and be like, What are you doing? You know, like in a, in a way that, uh, that I wish I had like shook myself. But then again, I think other people tried to shake me and I was like, what are you doing? I'm going to do what I do anyway.
Yeah. I, I would say if I had one piece of advice, it is to prioritize yourself.
I never, it's a personal thing that I I've never been good at that. I really was way too comfortable putting myself last all the time. And I [00:41:00] know that it's not always realistic, but I just do think it's really important to fight for. Um, I got better at it in the last year and it was just kind of too late, but I think if I had done it sooner, I wouldn't have allowed myself to burn out to the point that I did and I wouldn't have gotten into that point where like, I didn't enjoy my work or my life.
every day I was able to let something be more urgent or more of a priority than me. And, and whatever that means for you, whether that's like your sleep or your paycheck or your day off or making time for exercise or like whatever you need, and we're never going to be able to do all of it, but there was a lot of times where I accepted doing none of it, and that wasn't okay.
It just wasn't. So, yeah.
Kate: I think that's great advice.
Heather: Yeah.
Kate: I like that one. Well, thank, thank you so much, Heather, for being here.
Yeah, really great to process this with you. I agree. I agree I always appreciate your honesty.
So...
Heather: It's gotten me far, you know, sometimes...
Kate: Well, you know,
you and I [00:42:00] were like, nobody talks about this shit.
So, here we are.
Heather: yeah, I'm uh, this was a good talk. I appreciate it.
Kate: Thanks for listening to this Boss Talks edition of the Whiskey Fridays podcast.
To receive updates on new episodes and my writing exploring new possibilities in business and economics, visit katetyson.
substack. com. Whiskey Fridays is a collaboration between myself, Kate Tyson, of Wanderwell Consulting, and my friend and colleague, John Gerber, of Unlawyer. This episode was edited by me, with much hand holding and indispensable wisdom from Sean McMullen of Yellow House Media.
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